Dimension 20 Burrow’s End Interview: Erika Ishii Breaks Down Ava’s Change & Decision To Use D&D 5E

The twentieth season of Dimension 20, Burrow’s End, is barreling towards what is sure to be a shocking finale for the family of stoats at the center of the story. When their home was ravaged by poison, they traversed the dangerous Blue Forest looking for a new one when they found the Last Bast. Although it seemed like a safe haven at first, as they learned more about the secrets of this stoat society, they began to question the leadership and the prophecies they foretold about a larger threat: humans.

Aabria Iyengar returns to the dome as the Game Master for a new season that leans into a darker tone than Dimension 20 is known for. The cast includes Dimension 20 veterans Brennan Lee Mulligan, Siobhan Thopmson, Erika Ishii, and Isabella Roland, along with first-time Dimension 20 players Jasper Cartwright and Rashawn Nadine Scott. When crafting the story for this season, Iyengar looks at The Secret of Nimh and Watership Down as inspiration.

Screen Rant interviewed Erika Ishii about their arc in Dimension 20’s twentieth season, Burrow’s End. They explained how Ava changed after both the shocking sacrifice in the past episode and being confronted by her daughters. Ishii also broke down Iyengar’s ingenious decision to use Dungeons & Dragons 5e as the system to tell this story.

Erika Ishii Talks Dimension 20: Burrow’s End

Screen Rant: Erika, Ava is so much fun and broke my heart when you left the table. What was that like, that big hero moment and then just fully saying goodbye and leaving?

Erika Ishii: So that was completely unplanned, obviously. I didn’t know necessarily what would happen, so I think I was just a little shocked. At the Dimension 20 table we optimize, not necessarily for success, but for narrative opportunity. So getting to do that, I don’t know that we’ve had a PC death in the dome yet.

Crown of Candy.

Erika Ishii: Oh, Crown of Candy, yes, that’s right. But we didn’t have backup characters, so I didn’t quite know what was going on until I think we stopped down, I went in the back. They gave me a little headset to hear what was going on, and Aabria told me I was going to come back.

And while I think I said this in the adventuring party, but Denise, our makeup, our head of the makeup team came up and asked, “Oh, do you need another look for this? What’s happening?” And I said, “Oh, I’m coming back, only infused with the blue.” And she said, “Come here.” And then just grabbed me and put the eyeshadow on me and did my eyes all dramatically. So it was just definitely a team effort on all of that.

I love that so much. I also love that you mentioned it’s story forward first because you fully not helping Jasper with the Box of Doom stuff. Amazing.

Erika Ishii: They told me that they might cut that out because they’re like, “We can’t let people know that you just did it to be funny. They’ll be mad.” And I’m like, “Well, it is what it is.” It led to one of my very favorite moments in all of D20 history, so, so rewarding.

I was not mad about it. I thought it was perfect, especially because you’re like, “Jasper’s not been rolling well, let’s see what happens.”

Erika Ishii: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Compelling. Either way, something fun’s going to happen.

I also love that we have the huge Box of Doom moment and the way they edit it, it’s so tension-filled. And then the next episode it’s like, “Oh, Ava died.”

Erika Ishii: Yeah, I forgot what order everything happened in the show, to be honest with you. And so when the big Jason cliffhanger happened, I was like, “Is this it? Is what happens? This is when it happens?” And I didn’t know. It’s been incredible seeing how extra the editors have become, because the moment of the in memoriam for Jason was a complete shock to me. It was really delightful.

When I saw that, I probably like, “Oh, oh, Jaysohn’s dead. Oh, that’s it?” And then no, and then it said your character, that it’s so much fun. So, when Aabria told you you were coming back to the table, were you already outside the dome, just like, “Well, I think that’s it. I think I’m done with the game now.”

Erika Ishii: Yeah. I truly didn’t know what to expect, and aside from just being a fantastic GM, I also trust Aabria as a friend that she wouldn’t just be like, “Well, that’s it for you. You’re wrapped early.” So yeah, I truly didn’t have any idea what was going to happen until she took me out and said, “All right, you’re going to come on back, only you’re going to be changed.”

There was a lot of mystery this season that she did not let us in on. And so we’re discovering as the audience is. The fact that everybody at the table was able to just react and be in the moment, but still keep the audience in on all of it was very impressive to me.

I loved it. Let’s talk a little bit about that change. Has Ava processed that she died because she doesn’t seem to do that a lot where she actually thinks about what’s going on. It’s more of like, “This happened, let’s continue.”

Erika Ishii: Yeah. I think one of the hallmarks of someone that’s just so calcified in their ways is when change does happen, you just have to continue with the worldview that you had prior to this. Or if you take a moment to stop and think about it, things, it’ll fall apart. It’s like the Coyote chasing the Road Runner out off of the ledge, if you stop and look down, you’ll fall. So you have to just keep going. And so I think the idea of, “Well, yes, I’m too stubborn to die. I’m back,” is very Ava, I think.

It’s a fun line to ride as I have seen everybody do this a lot this season in particular, where you have to be saying one thing, but helping facilitate another. And that you have to… Ava is incredibly incurious and very stubborn, but at the same time you can’t just like an improv, you can’t say no. You can say no, but, and offer up the alternative to Aabria, which is to say stubbornly trying to remain illiterate.

That is one of my favorite bits, and I love that the guys let you do that.

Erika Ishii: Thank you. It’s been, yeah, the dice have really been telling a compelling story this season.

Let’s talk a little bit about, because Ava does have to confront her coping mechanism because her kids really confront her about the fact that not only is it not working, it’s hurt them a lot. How did that moment feel to really have everything come to a head with that?

Erika Ishii: Brennan and I getting to play that kind of a really potentially emotionally fraught relationship felt so good and so comfortable. And I love the way you can see how we set each other up for things. At the same time, clash. Once again saying one thing, but facilitating another. And so I really appreciated the…

We had talked about how we each reacted to our husband’s deaths and how the similarities and the differences between how we coped with it. And I think having that in our back pocket and in the back of our minds, but getting the opportunity to voice those feelings and then surprising Rashawn with it, that was another aspect that I was just so impressed.

Or Rashawn has just been so deep in Viola and so good about learning and growing, but just in such a funny way. And then being able to absolutely bring it home with the siding with Tula and the dynamic suddenly shifting. I feel so grateful that I got to have that interaction with Brennan because while it wasn’t planned, it’s almost like we do that no-look pass thing where we both know that there are important points in our past that need to come out in one way or another.

And knowing the timing of when to do that is difficult. And knowing when we can have that be part of moving everything forward is difficult because especially in a limited amount of time, how long do you keep a secret? And how long do you leave things unsaid?

There’s only so much time and I just… Yeah, that was really, I think very cathartic for myself and hopefully for others. As I had said, it’s a story of generational trauma and I think my favorite stories about that are about how someone can really truly be trying their best and still hurting somebody. And I think we really all want to see stories of redemption and that it’s not perfect, and the process could be long.

I’m sure that there will be backsliding, but the fact that somebody makes a dedication to change because they know that it’s what will make the people they love happiest, is I think something that we’re all really just hoping to see in our lives and in our stories.

It was so incredibly powerful to see. And I think that is one of my favorite parts of the season is you have these very dark moments, very silly moments, and then just very, like you were saying, cathartic moments. So you guys just nailed it.

Erika Ishii: Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. Also, shout out to Carlos Luna, our head of series who at one point, I think it was, oh, I can’t remember. I think it might’ve been just before episode eight, before we filmed it. He said, “Yeah, it’s giving Joy Luck Club… Have you seen that?” And I was like, “No, I haven’t seen it for a very specific reason.”

And he’s like, your homework is to go home and watch it tonight. And I did, and I texted him and like, “You son of a bitch. I cannot believe you did that.” It’s so good because its story is about just fundamental miscommunications and patterns of trauma between generations and yet a deep, deep love and eventual understanding on both sides.

I love it. Now, I just have to go through the series of events that happened here because within 24 hours y’all showed up. Basically, we don’t think anything you’re doing is right. Snuck into a bunch of places you shouldn’t killed all their leaders and took over this last past.

Erika Ishii: So, I don’t know how much I can say, but in the beginning of the season, there was a bit of a dust-up online about Aabria’s choice of using DND Fifth Edition. Now, Aabria, I’ve only ever been in non-DND games that Aabria has run. So that was surprising to me that people, and I’m grateful for the people that did trust her, that there was a reason that she chose that system. And it’s so interesting because we are predators. Stoats are predators. Their first instinct is fight. They are colonizers, essentially like the animal original colonizer. They don’t build. They kill and take.

And honestly, the legacy of the mechanics of Dungeons & Dragons, despite the fact that there’s been so much growth and progress in terms of inclusiveness and divesting itself from that colonizer mindset, it still is optimized for fighting, for fighting and for gathering power. And you want to level up and you become more powerful. You usually have more offensive capabilities, the more powerful you become.

Essentially, what I’m saying is that Dungeons & Dragons has mechanics that are geared towards conflict and garnering power, and that’s literally built into Stoats’ nature. I mean, you can’t judge Stoats based on human morality because that’s just, that’s their nature, they’re animals.

And the idea of Aabria using Dungeons & Dragons mechanics to encourage conflict, to encourage that idea of coming in and taking over Burrow is so nuanced and genius that I don’t think that I have the time or eloquence to properly talk about how the design is so perfectly dovetailing with the narrative and the themes that we’re exploring. At its core, it’s not a show about cute animals.

It is a show about what it means to be human. I think we as humans have certain drives that are important to us, community and expression, hats, hat-wearing. And how do you square those human instincts and urges with when you’re playing a character that is truly built to kill and take?

I’m sorry, I’m rambling a little bit about this, because I’ve been thinking about this so much. And that you see why she chose Dungeons & Dragons, those mechanics are… Yeah, of course all of us are role players and there are social skills that are needed, but it’s still persuasion and intimidation and subterfuge, and it’s all built towards violence. And the question is, do you take the animal instinct and the easy path that your character is built for, or do you try to find another way around it? And once you’ve made those mistakes, how do you come back from them?

Because once again, like with Ava, she was specifically built to be like, “I hate this. I hate change.” I think she says, our culture is great and truly built for this mindset and had been part of taking of Burrow before. So what happens when they’re traumatized and trying to make the old ways work, and suddenly they realize, “Oh no, that’s not what we’re supposed to do now.” How do you integrate into society and build community? And make things right and learn from the people that are helping to build and grow and protect?

I love the depth of that answer. And I honestly can’t imagine questioning Aabria on anything. So I’m like, “You know what you’re doing, you’re good.”

Erika Ishii: It’s true. And I think that for every season of Dimension 20, there’s different objectives. And it’s always, entertainment is always the big one. But you can take a look, I think it is a bit of a little reductive to say that capitalism is always the bad guy. I think that the idea of established systems that harm the marginalized are the bad guy in almost every campaign.

And one really satisfying thing that I don’t think even us players always realize is that we have that release at the end. We try to navigate the world together and figure out how can we have a happy ending? I mean, it’s what we’re trying to pursue as humans, and it’s a very complex thing to try to chase in a story where you have to hit sets at a certain time and have a limited amount of time to say things. But I think this season especially is geared towards asking very complex questions and exploring the nuanced answers we have available.

All of my questions feel silly after your answer.

Erika Ishii: Thank you. It took a lot of words for me to say them.

I’m just going to plow through.

Erika Ishii: Yeah, absolutely.

But okay, thanks Erika. So we also found out in this episode from a new recording that the first Stoats may have been a little more responsible for sabotaging this nuclear plant and all of these things that happened that the humans then anticipated. Because how it had been framed is humans started it, and it doesn’t seem like that’s necessarily true. What do you think Ava’s thoughts are with that? Is she still like, “Well, we’re going to kill the humans, who cares?” Or is she having a little bit more thought process about what exactly have the first Stoats been up to for 20 years?

Erika Ishii: I think especially after the confrontation with the family, Ava has realized there needs to be change. Whether she is able to execute on that is another matter, but I think that her priority is always her family. But the Overton window has also shifted. The rest of now thousands of people are part of the group that is the ingroup. So that requires new methods. Does that mean killing the humans?

I think the instinct of course, is yes. Yes, we attack, we invade, we fiercely protect what is ours. But now, especially with the first Stoats, seeing what they did and the rest of the population, I think Ava is starting to come around to the idea of doing other things other than hitting it with a stick, hitting it with a dick bone, I guess, as it were.

I mean, she’s very good at that though.

Erika Ishii: Yeah, that’s the thing. I built my character to be very good at that and to do a lot of damage to whatever enemy comes our way.

And now the answer may not be hitting things.

Erika Ishii: Yeah, the answer may not be hitting things. And she’s bad at that, truly, truly bad at that. And also opposed to that, she’s not built for talking things out, truly.

I truly think one of my favorite scenes in the entire series is Ava just rolling up to a war council meeting. It’s like [inaudible 00:22:38] mouth. I’m like, can I just have an entire show of Ava’s mini adventures?

Erika Ishii: Yeah, God. It’s that thing where your parents do something and you know they mean well, and they really love you. But they’re just, you can’t do that. That might’ve been fine where you’re from or in your generation, but you just can’t. Don’t do it. Please don’t. Please do not. Oh, gosh. Yeah, she’s a terror. An absolute terror.

In the best way. It’s so much fun. And then the last time we talked, you said you kind of from this want to play more antagonistic characters. Can you talk a little bit about how to do that at a table? I guess safely is kind of the word I was…

Erika Ishii: Yeah. The Dimension 20 sets, my experience with them at any rate. I don’t know, maybe secretly somebody has not had this experience is that the culture has been set to be extremely safe. There’s a safety meeting every day, both in terms of your physical safety, don’t touch these cables, blah, blah, blah. But also emotional safety and just mental rest of being like, “Hey, if you need to go to the bathroom, just go. Leave. Your comfort is more important than getting the shot or whatever.”

So emotional safety is also a priority. Also, I mean, most of those folks at the table I really already knew and trusted and loved as friends. And the others were just so… Everybody is a consummate professional, like a truly top-notch performer. And in that kind of environment, especially if you take the time to check in and get informed consent from people, it’s just a fertile ground for whatever narrative you want to tell.

And a lot of narrative requires conflict. I think that if it was with strangers or with people that I didn’t know or trust to be able to set good boundaries, I would not do this. This is only the kind of character that you can do with people that you can trust to tell you no, honestly. But yeah, I would say, and same with Brennan’s secret with Aabria.

Yeah, that blew me away.

Erika Ishii: Yeah, it does require communication. We all love a surprise, but if it comes to safety and comfort and even fun, you have to prioritize that.

I love it. And Dimension 20 definitely does. This season has been fantastic. There’s two episodes left. I am so scared and so excited, because I feel like it’s going to traumatize me. And I feel like every episode has done that. I literally finished, it might’ve been this episode, and I just stared at the wall, disassociating for about 20 minutes.

Erika Ishii: No.

It’s my favorite thing. So I am loving this season and I cannot wait to finish it.

Erika Ishii: Thank you. And I’m really grateful that for you and for all the people that are really loving this season, because it’s a challenging one, I would say. I think Aabria constantly challenges her players and the audience and what the form factor of our art is. And of most of all herself, she’s always pushing. It’s always something, whether it’s exploring themes in a way that other people haven’t, or just the going crazy on production.

Or just really, she likes to challenge herself, whether that’s creating a character like a PC that’s quote unquote difficult. Or building a world that doesn’t have easy answers. I’m truly in awe of this, and I’m hats off to all of the viewers who are along for the ride because she trusted the audience, and I think they’re delivering.

Oh, definitely. It’s right up there was one of my favorite seasons. I am curious because one of the things Aabria mentioned before the premiere was this arms race of DMs in Dimensional 20. How do you think Brennan tops this? Can he?

Erika Ishii: Gosh, I don’t know. So interesting. Again, each DM has their strengths and the thing where it’s just absolutely blows people away. I think Aabria is really hard on herself in terms of, she’s like, “I have to make something. Whenever I step into that dome, I will make something that nobody has ever seen or done before.” And I think each DM pushes the production forward and helps it grow, and elevates the art.

But I think Aabria more than anything is just like, “I need to take people’s breath away.” And Brennan is like, “I just need to tell a good story,” and he’ll push things narratively. But yeah, I don’t know. I think just seeing the way he reacted to things on set and the things he said. I mean, he, I know is just blown away by Burrows on, so don’t know. I don’t envy having to go after that.

About Dimension 20: Burrow’s End

Burrow’s End takes place in the Blue Forest where a certain family of stoats comprised of matriarch Ava, adult sisters Tula and Viola, Viola’s husband Thorn Vale, and Tula’s children Jaysohn and Lila find their once peaceful existence threatened by forces both natural and otherwise.

Check out our other Dimension 20 Burrow’s End interviews:

• Aabria Iyengar
• Siobhan Thompson on episode 2
• Brennan Lee Mulligan
• Erika Ishii
• Jasper Cartwright
• Siobhan Thompson on episode 6